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Poster: cosmic charlie dupree Date: Apr 1, 2010 10:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: distinctive opening licks

While trying to stave off boredom in a meeting this morning, I jotted down songs where Jerry opens with a trademark lick that is immediately recognizable to all of us, but which doesn't repeat later in the song. Here's what I came up with:

Brown Eyed Women
It Must Have Been The Roses
St. Stephen
Mama Tried
El Paso (cascading note sequence, granted after the low drums/bass/rhythm guitar opening notes)
The Music Never Stopped (same caveat)
Jack Straw

No doubt I'm missing some....

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Poster: chinarider79 Date: Apr 1, 2010 6:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Death Don't

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Poster: dogsinapile! Date: Apr 1, 2010 10:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Mission In The Rain
Truckin (sort of)


But the real question is...
What was the meeting about?

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Poster: cosmic charlie dupree Date: Apr 1, 2010 11:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Ha! Don't make me relive the meeting all over again. Suffice it to say that it involved heavy doses of gantt charts, high/medium/low risk rankings, discussions of milestones, required investments, etc. I will NOT be encouraging my kids to follow in daddy's footsteps.

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Poster: spring mountain high Date: Apr 2, 2010 5:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

dupree's

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Poster: fenario80 Date: Apr 1, 2010 12:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

I have always loved the distinctive Bob lick that opens China Cat Sunflower; it was always one of the most thrilling moments of a show to me.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Apr 1, 2010 12:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Must agree--the opening of CHINA CAT stands out more to me than any other tune

nice example of crowd reaction to those licks is the 12/29/77 Dicks Picks Vol. 10 show from Winterland...they hadn't played ChinaCat all year long & the crowd went batshit as soon as they heard those distinctive notes.

Runner up would have to be the deep opening signature notes of MORNING DEW. No mistaking that one.

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Poster: gumby69 Date: Apr 1, 2010 10:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Sugaree
franklin's
althea

To name a few, the are also my favorite songs.

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Poster: Fo' twenny Date: Apr 1, 2010 10:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Candyman
Mississippi Half-Step

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Poster: high flow Date: Apr 1, 2010 10:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Help on the Way

Oh, perhaps I misunderstood as well.

How about Truckin'and Casey Jones?



This post was modified by high flow on 2010-04-01 17:57:30

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Poster: cosmic charlie dupree Date: Apr 1, 2010 11:00am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Perfect examples of what I'm getting at. I don't think either of the opening bars in Candyman & Miss. Half Step repeat.

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Poster: Solo Head Date: Apr 1, 2010 10:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Every song he ever did has a distinct open lick...thats right

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Poster: cosmic charlie dupree Date: Apr 1, 2010 10:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Hey Gumby - I'm trying to 'hear' in my mind the openings of those 3, but they all seem to repeat throughout the whole song. Maybe I'm not seeing the parts you're referencing. I love those 3 tunes alot too.

I was trying to get at licks (maybe not the correct guitar term?) where Jerry does something at the opening - one time - and then that's it for the rest of the song. And over many, many version, while the opening lick might vary slightly, it's still recognizable and distinct. Mama Tried is a very clear-cut example if you picture the portion right before Bobby starts to sing.

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Poster: gumby69 Date: Apr 1, 2010 11:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

oh.

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Poster: cosmic charlie dupree Date: Apr 1, 2010 11:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Oh.... Sweet Mama!

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Poster: lobster12 Date: Apr 1, 2010 4:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Miss. half step

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Apr 1, 2010 2:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

not to change the intent of your post but instead what struck me was how immediately recognizable his guitar playing is period. Example - everything he ever did with Starship, Crosby, etc.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 1, 2010 2:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Couldn't agree more, J; always recall the post JAirpl/preStarship albums he worked on with them, and how clear it was when he did the lead work...even TYCW with CSN&Y, on pedsteel...

He always came thru it seems to me.

But you know, for all the "good ones" (ie, lets take someone's "top 25 lead" players, and now that I think about it, I could probably recognize most of them right off, and I am not very good at this sort of thing...

So, to turn it around, how many great guitarists would you say were so generic, you COULDN'T recognize them right away?

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Poster: Longnstrange Date: Apr 1, 2010 6:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

China Cat Sunflower post '87. Jerry started using a four stroke ruff intro in China Cat in '88, changing the song once again and now falling into your catagory of tunes where the hook is not EXACTLY repeated. http://www.archive.org/details/gd1988-03-17.sbd.miller.91156.sbeok.flac16 is the first example of the new four stroke ruff intro that I have found (please Geek out with me and let me know if this change shows itself anytime earlier). He does it again HARD at the 4/1/88 show in Jersey. Seems once it starts going this way it is pretty much a four stroke on nights with energy and the standard slide up to the one on nights where he's too tired to rip it.

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Poster: stealyourwife Date: Apr 1, 2010 12:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Did somebody already say "Easy Wind"?...no? ok...

Easy Wind

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Poster: cosmic charlie dupree Date: Apr 1, 2010 1:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Nice! I was trying to remember the opening to Easy Wind in the meeting, but I couldn't hear it with all the talking going on....I didn't have the balls to ask everyone to quiet down.

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Poster: stealyourwife Date: Apr 1, 2010 2:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

cool idea for a thread btw...these licks make great ringtones...i used to have the Candyman and Easy Wind licks for ringtones

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Poster: stealyourwife Date: Apr 1, 2010 2:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Stealin and Alligator also fit the bill, at least when they're not sequed from another jam.

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Poster: madmonkmcphee Date: Apr 2, 2010 12:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

High time, Go to Nassau

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Apr 1, 2010 1:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Stella Blue

I can't think of another song where an Emaj7 in the opening verse feels and sounds as right as it does in SB.

Yeah, yeah, I know it's repeated, but to me it seems like there's a ritardando on the opening verse that just doesn't show up in subsequent verses.

This post was modified by Mandojammer on 2010-04-01 20:38:52

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Poster: stealyourwife Date: Apr 1, 2010 2:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Eyes of the World...But as far as setting up tension/resolution, which I think is what you're getting at, SB nails it.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Apr 1, 2010 10:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

May not meet the "not repeating" qualification, but the opening few bars of Morning Dew stand tops for me in terms of immediate emotional reaction.

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Poster: headgdhead Date: Apr 1, 2010 3:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Tennessee Jed fur shure

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Poster: sambonk2 Date: Apr 1, 2010 12:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

BIODTL
Foolish Heart
eyes

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 1, 2010 11:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Interesting, CCD; like you, I think of StSt as THE example, BUT if MS came on and told us "uh...no, he plays the exact licks later!" it would still stand as a "distinctive opening" (ie, rest of the band comes "in" with a bang, etc.).

But, then I instantly thought of how NONE of us recognized it when they did it post hiatus (the slow + Donna version) and so the "licks" alone do not make the recognition?

See what I am getting at?

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Poster: dogsinapile! Date: Apr 1, 2010 11:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Don't you think some of it can be the "immediate emotional reaction" that SDH mentioned? As opposed to the actual "lick" itself?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 1, 2010 11:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Yeah, but fig'd that it ("emot react") follows from what CCD is getting at, right (something triggers it)?

So, I have it for early StSt's, but didn't at shows for latter ones...? Without knowing what it was, you're right, there was no emotional recognition/reaction, then sadly, there was a PERMANENT negative one (har, but actually, true...).

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Poster: dogsinapile! Date: Apr 1, 2010 11:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

On a slightly different, but similar note, do you ever find your self anticipating the song That followed on the album when a certain song finishes? Like the opening notes of High Time after an Uncle John's Band or Scarlet B's after Loose Lucy or Friend Of The Devil after Box Of Rain? It seems that the songs become ingrained in the synapses to some degree, plus they just fit that way...
Does that make any sense at all?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 1, 2010 12:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Have to admit, album lover that I am, I didn't do it at concerts...more like CCD, I did it for the obvious "pairings", and MUCH more common, as often discussed here, I (we) did it based on a few notes noodled by someone, so we could yell it out and be first to get it "right"...

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Poster: cosmic charlie dupree Date: Apr 1, 2010 11:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Dogs - I definitely anticipate the next songs when listening to the studio albums, but I think you're referring to live performances where your brain is still thinking in terms of album sequence. I can't say that I do that, but I do anticipate the somewhat predictable (or at least likely) pairings of songs. For example, when Bobby sings "and I left his dead ass there by the side of the road" I start thinking about the Big River shuffle beat since it often directly follows without pause.

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Poster: cosmic charlie dupree Date: Apr 1, 2010 11:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

WT - When I mentioned St. Stephen, I was actually thinking of the very beginning - the soft part w/o drums or bass where Bobby is strumming chords and Jerry is playing those solo notes (think Live Dead as the generic example). Maybe that's what you're talking about too... I just can't hear that ever repeating again in the song. The louder, 2nd lick definitely repeats, and as you say with a louder punch, later in the song.

Both original licks were dropped in the late 70's versions.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 1, 2010 12:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Wait a minute, are you kidding me? I have no recordings of later StSt, but are you saying the opening, which is exactly what I speak of, is entirely GONE in the post hiatus versions? The music guys I was with said "no...it's just slowed down"...

But, if you are right about this, then of course I wouldn't have recognized it!

Yes, LD is defn version:

"Doot doo. do do do do doo doo,
do do dodo do doo doot"

Crap, I can't do this shit...

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Poster: cosmic charlie dupree Date: Apr 1, 2010 1:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

you're right... I just checked the oft-cited McArthur Court show, and the 2nd opening part (which repeats) is still there, just slowed down:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd78-01-22.sbd.popi.4974.sbeok.shnf

Only the very beginning of the song seems to be dropped. As usual, I can't be trusted as an authority on anything around here. Always fumbling.... :)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 1, 2010 1:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Yeah, I can see that--the very beg seems missing (memory here) as it just goes right into a slow, loping version of the intro, if that makes sense...loping--like a horse in between trotting and running...I prefer running, but I know it's less bouncey on a lope.

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Apr 1, 2010 1:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

just did a random sample of post hiatus Steph's, the intros are there with a few exceptions (as CCD states 1/22/78...) where they skip the intro and segue from a jam straight into the rhythm w/drums, even the very last Sainted in 83 has the intro

don't remember hearing the intro riff again during the body of the song (?) but the bridge ("Ladyfinger...") loosely incorporates 3 of the 4 intro chords with a similar arrhythmic approach (perhaps the most definitive chord outlining can be heard by both Bob and Phil on the album?)

interesting Phil states in his book Jer felt the bridge caused a loss of momentum for the song (i've always loved that particular change of pace!) later they would compromise for the bridge section by spinning a rhythm counted in 3 (technically 6/8) a sort of sped up Wharf Rat bridge feel ("But I'll get back, on my feet someday...") good example of something that is appreciated by a listener while at the same time despised by the performer




btw, 4 Cream discs arrived intact the other day good sir, looking forward to some r&r time this holiday weekend ("first Sunday after the full moon following the vernal equinox") should be interesting!

my use of the word "preoccupied" when referring to Clapton's infatuation with the blues may have been misleading - "Excessively concerned with something; distracted." was my intent, but i now see this term could also be taken as, "Wholly occupied with...", obviously Cream explored more than just 12 bar forms, although many songs are strongly derivative (Outside Woman, Sunshine, Swlabr...)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 1, 2010 1:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Good to know, and thanks also for chiming in! Glad I wasn't out to lunch either on mailing abilities or StSt intro understandings!

If you like that, you won't believe how much more I now have thanks to Arb, and even more amazing! Let me know and it can come your way.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Apr 1, 2010 1:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

People.... The original slow Stephen intro was still played in the later '70s versions (and, I think in '83 too). Actually it's hard to hear how WT could have failed to recognize it... Put on any '76/77 version and it's plain as day!
The 1/22/78 version is actually well-known as the one time where Garcia skips the intro in his haste to get to the song (just like, for example, the 5/22/77 Terrapin where he skips the first half).

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 1, 2010 2:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Well, I did...too slow I guess, it and me!

But, now with MS's input, and yours, it appears the one we happened to listen to, to test CCD's hypothesis, is the one it's missing from...

So, not sure, but I still feel vindicated.

Back to CREAM.

EDIT for LiA: what I've always meant was that because it is so slow when the song started, the first time I heard it in 76, I didn't recognize it...not that I didn't subsequently, nor that I didn't then say, after 5-10 sec, "oh...it IS StSt!?" and cringe a wee bit...

This post was modified by William Tell on 2010-04-01 21:06:47

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Poster: cosmic charlie dupree Date: Apr 1, 2010 1:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

LiA - I'm glad I pre-empted your set-the-record-straight post with my "I can't be trusted" comment! Hopefully it doesn't grate on you that sometimes we (at least I) get it all wrong sometimes. I like to think there's room for novices on the board; otherwise I'd be limited to patiently waiting for the definitive answer from the likes of you, with none of the gratification that comes from participating in a conversation.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 1, 2010 6:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Hey CCD--I feel the same way all the time! Except I open my big mouth so often, I make many more than you could even imagine (mistakes!). On StSt, I thought it was going to be a HUGE joke on me after all these yrs of having said "first time I heard it 76 I didn't recognize it..." if what you'd said had been true--it would have just been another example of me screwing up! But, as for why I didn't recognize it 35 yrs or so ago, it really was just way too slow, and unenergetic, if you follow my drift...and I haven't listened to them since, truly (but Dire had sent me that one you mentioned--it's one of his favs I think, so I could pull out the disk...I can't stream so I can't check things quickly the way you all seem to be able too, and that's NOT because of the prostate surgery!).

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Poster: cosmic charlie dupree Date: Apr 1, 2010 9:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

WT - you are truly one of the good guys. BTW, your handling of the whole marriage exchange was exemplary - you simultaneously maintained civility and your own self-respect!

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Poster: vapors Date: Apr 1, 2010 11:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

Comes A Time

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Poster: midnightcarousel Date: Apr 1, 2010 11:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: distinctive opening licks

ship of fools